Which is true, the Bible or the Qur'an?
This conversation was begun by a Muslim who wanted to defend Islam after I said that Islam had no proof of its validity. It is an interesting conversation since it covers different subjects including God's self revelation, evidence, miracle, Muhammad, beating your wife, and science. It is long, but worth the read.
You will note as you read that I quote the Qur'an and the
Hadith. This is because the quotes are already on the CARM website
and I was simply cutting and pasting the material in.
Kareem: Hi
Matt: Hi
Kareem: How does God reveal
Himself to us?
Matt: We would have to
ask Him or look to evidence that would be supernatural.
Kareem: What is the evidence
that needs to be looked at?
Matt: You tell me. If
God were to reveal Himself, what might we expect?
Kareem: Depends on HOW God
would reveal Himself? And HOW do you expect God to reveal Himself?
Matt: I am simply asking
that if God were to reveal Himself to us, what kinds of things would it
be fair to expect with this revelation? Let's explore this together first,
okay?
Kareem: Ok.
Matt: I propose that
if God were to reveal himself to us, that the revelation would be extraordinary
in quality, agreed?
Kareem: Agreed.
Matt: I further propose
that it is reasonable to assume that God's self revelation might very well
be accompanied by miracles, agreed?
Kareem: I don't consider it
reasonable that God would reveal Himself, but if this was a possibility
then yes, it would accompanied with miracles.
Matt: Okay, one more
point, then. I think it is safe to say that what God revealed about
Himself would not always be accepted by all people, agreed?
Kareem: Agreed and History
is a witness
Matt: If this is reasonable,
then could we not look into history for examples of the extraordinary and
miraculous "revelation" of God that, of course, has not been accepted by
all people?
Kareem: Yes, we could.
Matt: Then where do we
have, in history, an account of this happening?
Kareem: Do u want me to answer?
Matt: Is there anyone
or anything that claims to be the revelation of God that is accompanied
by extraordinary occurrences and miracles?
Kareem: I have more than a
few examples...Yes there is...
Matt: Does Islam fit
our reasonable expectation?
Kareem: Definitely...
Matt: How so?
Kareem: Islam fits beyond our
reasonable expectation.
Matt: How so?
Kareem: Do you have time?
Because I can go on forever. But I will keep it short.
Matt: Can you give me
some reasonable accounts of the extraordinary events surrounding the supposed
revelation of Islam along with the miraculous?
Kareem: Of course.
Matt: Please just cite
one occurrence at a time and let's look at them.
Kareem: Ok, the first thing
about Islam is that it speaks about history and also speaks about the miraculous
events of many prophets, it is totally in line with those prophets miracles
as reported by other scriptures and doesn't distinguish between any of them.
All are highly respected and honored in Islam. To give you examples...The
Qur'an confirms Prophet Abraham was thrown in the fire and came out untouched...
MIRACLE! Prophet Moses wby the command of God parted the see and Him and
His people escaped the Pharoah... MIRACLE! Prophet Jesus was born of Virgin
mother who was Pure and never touched by a man... MIRACLE! Prophet Jesus
spoke to his people from his cradle about His Messengership.... MIRACLE!
Prophet Jesus cured those who were born blind... MIRACLE..!!!#
Matt: All the Qur'an has done is claimed miracles
from people already written about in the Jewish Old Testament. What miracles
are there recorded in the Qur'an? Or, what miracles are there concerning
Muhammad as are recorded in the Qur'an?
Matt: Okay, then, if
you state that the extraordinary and the miraculous are evidence of God's
self-revelation in Islam, then is it not also fair to say that this is evidence
of the self-revelation of God in Christianity since Christianity has the
extraordinary events of fulfilled prophecy, the virgin birth, Jesus' many
miracles, as well as His death, burial, and resurrection? In fact, doesn't
Christianity have even more claims of the extraordinary and miraculous about
Jesus than Islam does about Muhammad or itself?
Kareem:
No.
Matt: You mean, that
the extraordinary and the miraculous work for Islam, but not for Christianity?
Why?
Kareem: Very easy to say, but
on examination you will find that is not true.
Matt: What is not true?
Kareem: You see, my dear friend,
in Christianity there is only one holy scripture, that is the Bible. In
Islam there is two, the Qur'an and The Hadith.
Matt: The Bible is, my
dear friend, 66 separate writings, written over 1600 years, by 40 different
people, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents.
Kareem: The Qur'an is the word
of God, as revealed word for word by Angel Gabriel, untouched and still
in its original form.
Matt: How do you know
this? I have studied the Bible and I know that it is reliable historically
and that it has been transmitted to us reliably. I also know that
the eyewitnesses wrote what they saw Jesus do. Jesus died on the cross and
rose from the dead. This is what they saw. Do you deny that they wrote this?
Kareem: The Hadith is what
the Prophet said, and are his traditions collected by those around him who
met and sat with him and were transmitted correctly, they have been preserved
through generations and have been divided by their strength in the chain
of narration. There are over 300,000 of them
Matt: You trust the Hadith?
Kareem: This is the equivalent
of the bible, yet they have undergone far greater scrutiny and this itself
is a great science. To understand the Qur'an we need Hadith, and to
understand the Hadith we need the Qur'an. Both are hand in hand and
cannot be separated! Do I trust hadith?
Matt: May I quote some
Hadith to you to see if you believe what it says?
Matt: Allah made Adam
60 cubits high (generally a cubit was 18 inches. Therefore, Adam was 90
feet tall) The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall.
(Hadith, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 543, Narrated Abu Huraira.) Do you believe
that Adam was 90 feet tall when God mad him?
Kareem: There are Sahih (reliable)
Hasan (slightly less) Daieef (weak in narration) and then fabricated.
They have been preserved. You see? Its not that simple...
Matt: Do you believe
that Adam was 90 feet tall when God made him? Are you there?
Kareem: Firstly, we need to
check the strength of the narration, then we need to check that this is
the correct Arabic translation (remember hadith are preserved in Arabic)
the we need to see, how did the people understand cubits in the time of
the Prophet peace be upon him, and so on... and this is done by the Scholars
of Islam, I cannot do that. I have no knowledge But, if
we were to take it literally, then yes, but I am no scholar, so do not hold
me to that
Matt: Okay, that is fair.
Do you also believe this, then? The devil peed in an ear? "It was mentioned
before the Prophet that there was a man who slept the night till morning
(after sunrise). The Prophet said, 'He is a man in whose ears (or ear) Satan
had urinated.'" (Hadith, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 492)
Kareem: ...and only scholars
have the authority, who understand Qur'an, and Tafsir (Qur'an interpretation)
and the Sciences of Qur'an and the Hadith, And the Science of Hadith, and
the principles of jurisprudence, and are well versed in Arabic language
and so on. Again my dear friend, you would need a scholar to interpret
that for you, but I would say that it is metaphorical, not literal, but
again only scholars can interpret that correctly,
Matt: Okay, then please
let me quote the Qur'an: "As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty
and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds,
(And last) beat them (lightly)..." (Qur'an, 4:34). Do you agree with the
Qur'an that it is sometimes okay to beat wives?
Kareem: I fear my Lord for
the Day of Judgment, lest I say interpret something wrong and misguide you
or others, if I have no knowledge of something shall remain silent, as the
Prophet has said...
Matt: By contrast the
Bible says of wives, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also
loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26that He might
sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,"
(Eph. 5:25-26).
Matt: Shouldn't you find
out if this is what Islam says?
Kareem: Yes I agree with the
verse, but...
Matt: Then you agree
it is okay to beat wives? Is it also
okay for wives to beat their husbands?
Kareem: We do not take the
verse literally.
Matt: Then you do not
take it for what it says?
Kareem: Again, this is part
of the problem with those who look for mistakes, taking everything literally.
I already mentioned that the Qur'an cannot be taken on its own, Qur'an and
Hadith go hand in hand.
Matt: I have merely quoted
the Qur'an and the Hadith to you. If you want to go examine those texts
and get back with me, that is fine.
Kareem: Now the Qur'an in this
verse talks 3 stages which are important to go through. To keep it
short I will avoid going into the first two, but I can if you wish, the
last stage is that you beat the wife, (lightly). Now, how do we beat
the wife? do we strangle her? do we punch her? do we kick her? How
do we know? For this we look to the hadith.
Matt: Beating lightly
or beating hard, either one is still beating.
Kareem: How was it allowed
in the time of the Prophet?
Matt: Which do you think
is a better way to treat your wife, with a little beating or with love the
same way Jesus loves His church?
Kareem: And this was never,
never supposed to cause her pain, rather it is to show her your displeasure.
Well you see my friend there are many many things to consider, its not so
black and whit
Matt: How can beating
your wife NOT cause her pain? Again, which do you think is a better way
to treat your wife, with a little beating or with love the same way Jesus
loves His church?
Kareem: Firstly, I am guessing
that you have not looked into the many many verses in the Qur'an commanding
(not recommending), commanding the Believers to love, respect, honor, your
wife. Secondly, the Qur'an deals with reality, practical daily reality...and
reality is that we live in a time, where a wife can be very disobedient
to her husband.
Matt: I am not stating
that the Qur'an doesn't have those verses. But, I am curious about the one
that states it is okay to beat your wife. If it is okay to beat your
wife, then is it okay for a wife to beat a husband in Islam or are they
not equal in Islam?
Kareem: What do you if your
wife (and I hope you are not married, if you are then I don't mean this
in disrespect, only an example) is sleeping with someone else? Islam deals
with reality, practical reality. It is a way of life with a solution
to every problem.
Matt: No disrespect taken,
thanks. Yes, I am married. If she did do this, I would not beat her.
Would you say that if a husband commits adultery would it then be okay for
the wife to beat him? Can you please answer that?
Kareem: And about a women beating
a man, you would need to consult the scholars. You see, sleeping around
is just an example.
Matt: So then, it is
definitely okay for a husband to beat his wife, but it may not be okay for
a wife to beat her husband? Is that what you are saying?
Kareem: In an Islamic society,
both adulterers (man and women) would be killed in public as a means of
lesson for the rest, as you can appreciate this cannot carry on in society
destroying families (the backbone of every nation). Again, you make
it sound like beating without mercy, this is not true. You must look
to the hadith for description.
Matt: I understand what
you are saying. But, I find a profound inequality between men and women
in the Qur'an. I did not say it was beating without mercy. I simply
said "beating." The Bible does not allow us to beat our wives.
But the Qur'an allows you to beat your wives.
Kareem: And bear in mind this
is the LAST, I repeat LAST resort, there are two stages before that which
is sufficient.
Matt: Which is more loving
in this respect, the Qur'an or the Bible?
Kareem: The questions isn't
so black and white, my dear friend. So there is no concept of punishment
in the bible?
Matt: I did not say there
is not mention of punishment in the Bible. But, the Bible tells us to love
our wives, not to beat them. Again, which is more loving regarding
the wife, the Qur'an or the Bible?
Kareem: Can you also quote
me some verses from the Qur'an about loving your wives? Then
we can compare and I can answer your question. It is not reasonable
to quote a verse form the Bible about loving the wife, and then one verse
from the Qur'an about hitting the wife and then asking the question, "which
one is more loving?" Rarther you must also quote some verses from Qur'an
about loving the wife (and also from hadith - very important to get a clear
picture) and also from the Bible about loving the wife and then compare...this
is if we are sincere, and God is always with the sincere.
Matt: If the Qur'an say
to love your wife, that is good. But, the Bible never says to beat your
wife. Since the Qur'an allows for beating your wife, then that is
what Islam teaches. That is not what Christianity teaches. Again,
which is more loving regarding the wife, the Qur'an or the Bible?
Matt: Why will you not
answer this question?
Kareem: I have just explained
why the scales are not clear. What does the bible say if your wife
has committed adultery? Or she is disobedient to you?
Matt: The Bible says
we have the option of divorce. But it does not say to beat her. I
see you will not answer the question about which teaches better treatment
for wives, the Qur'an or the Bible. I understand why. Perhaps we should
move to the subject of sincerity. Okay?
Kareem: Again, its not that
simple. You tend to see it as black and white, and with Islam that
is just not always possible
Matt: I understand, but
the fact is that the Qur'an teaches it is permissible to beat your wife
where the Bible does not. The Bible teaches us to love our wives the same
way Jesus loves the Church.
Kareem: Again, if you can also
provide me with the verses from Qur'an about treating wives with love, and
also from the hadith, then I can maybe answer your question
Matt: Would Jesus, if
He were married, have beaten His wife? Of
course He would never have done such a thing. Therefore, Christian men are
not permitted to beat their wives.
Kareem: That is speculation
and we would never know the answer because He did not marry (May Peace be
upon Him)
Matt: Yes, it is speculation.
But can you see Jesus beating a woman? ever?
Kareem: Again that is speculation.
We can never know. May Peace be upon Him.
Matt: Very well, about
the issue of sincerity, can we address it?
Kareem: Yes we can, but I would
love to return to issue of love and wife at some point with you if that
is ok. If not today, then another time...
Matt: Of course.
Is being sincere in your repentance
before God enough to please God and attain forgiveness of sins?
Kareem: No. There are more conditions than that.
Matt: What are they?
Kareem: There are three or
four, from the top of my head I can answer, if you want exact then I can
quickly look it up if you don't mind waiting. But they are 1. To recognize
that you have done wrong 2. To sincerely ask God's forgiveness 3. and while
asking forgiveness to sincerely believe (for that moment at least) that
one will never do such again
Matt: Okay, I understand.
I have some questions for you, okay? Can Allah do any wrong?
Kareem: No, Allah is above
all imperfections.
Matt: Okay, Is Allah
then the standard of what is right and wrong?
Kareem: Standard?
Matt: He is the measure
of what is truly right, correct? It is wrong to lie because it is against
God's nature to lie? Would you agree?
Kareem: Yes.
Matt: Good. I am glad
we agree.
Matt: If God is the measure
of what is right and He tells us to not lie (as an example) and if we lie,
then do we not offend God?
Kareem: We can not offend God,
God does not need us we need him, if we lie this is a burden upon only our
own souls and for that we will be held accountable.
Matt: You mean that if
God says something that is true and we contradict Him that it is okay to
do that?
Kareem: Of course not. But
we have a free will to choose and we will be held accountable.
Matt: Then when we lie
we are contradicting the very character of God, correct? If I insult
you, are you offended?
Kareem: We cannot contradict
God. We can only disobey Him.
Matt: If I were to call
you all sorts of names and call you a liar, and steal from you, and do you
great wrong, would you be affected by this at all?
Kareem: If you insult me yes
Matt: Is God unaffected
when we defy Him?
Kareem: According to human
nature, yes.
Matt: Is God not made
aware of our defiance and at least in this awareness He is affected?
Kareem: God is unaffected.
Matt: You mean the mind
of Allah is unaware of our defiance and sin against Him?
Kareem: Again, we are God's
slaves, not the other way around.
Matt: If we are slaves,
then we are not free. But, that is another topic. If we offend God,
is He not aware in His mind of the offense?
Kareem: No of course not, Allah
is closer to us then our jugular vain, He is The All Aware, The All knowing.
He knows when even a leaf falls of a tree. He is aware, and knows
everything.
Matt: Good, I am glad
you agree. If this is so, then has God not harbored in His own mind that
which is contrary to His holy nature? The fact that God is aware
of sin means that He has been affected in that He is aware -- to say the
least. If God were not affected, then He would have to be unaware of our
sins.
Kareem: But is not offended,
I will relate to you a hadith which I am paraphrasing... If all of Mankind
and Jinnkind, were to worship Allah they can not increase Allah in anything
and If All of mankind and Jinnkind were to not worship Allah they cannot
decrease Allah in Anything
Matt: How then could
God not be affected in some way by our sins, since He knows them and must
be aware of them within His own nature? I see no problem with that
Hadith, but it is not relevant to my questions. How then could God not be
affected in some way by our sins, since He knows them and must be aware
of them within His own nature.
Kareem: God being aware, and
God being affected are two separate separate things.
Matt: I would agree to
a point, but being aware of something is to be affected by it since the
awareness is in itself a reality within God and that reality within Him
has an affect; otherwise, it does not exist.
Kareem: As far as God is aware
we have authority to say this because we have this in revelation.
Matt: The point is this:
If you sin against God, God is aware of it in His mind. This sin is unholy
and contrary to His holy nature. By God's awareness of it, He is affected,
in some way, by this unholiness that He is aware of.
Kareem: How God feels, when
we sin is something else, we need revelation to say this, we cannot speculate
in the air and treat God like a human and give Him human qualities. God
is MUCH, MUCH, HIGHER than this,
Matt: Therefore, God
is affected. And, since God is infinite, the sin against God is of infinite
value, or should I say, infinite punishment
Kareem: Again we need revelation
to tell us this, to give us the authority to declare this...
Matt: If you break God's
word, you have sinned against Him. How can your own efforts please an infinite
God of infinite holiness?
Kareem: If you violate his
Law, yes. We have Law, and we struggle to stick by the Law, and not
to violate it, and by this we seek His pleasure. We are tested by
this Law as a measurement and the Law is comprehensive.
Matt: Correct. But God
is infinitely holy and righteous.
Kareem: Yes
Matt: If you break His
law, what makes you think that you can please Him by your own good works
since you are already offended Him?
Kareem: Because from revelation
we know that can seek repentance if we err and this comes with conditions.
Not empty repentance and repentance, as I mentioned before, is also a great
science in Islam.
Matt: I have another
question for you. Should you appeal to God to be pleased with you based
upon your own efforts.
Kareem: Yes. We must
always ask God to forgive us and accept the best of our deeds so long as
we are sincerely striving to stick within his boundaries.
Matt: So then, what is
in us is good enough to please God? Even though we are sinners?
Kareem: Yes
Matt: Then let me follow
through with this. You are telling me that a person who has sinned against
God can please God even though God is infinitely holy and the sinner is
finite and unholy? Is that what you are saying?
Kareem: Yes.
Matt: Wow. You must have
a high opinion of your own abilities. I do not believe that I, a sinner,
can please an infinitely holy God. I do not believe that what I can offer
to God is sufficient to please God because I am a sinner and He is not.
The difference between God and myself is infinite. Why would I believe that
I could bridge that gap of infinity by my own deeds? Yet, you believe
this is possible, to please an infinitely holy and perfect God even though
you are not infinite, not holy, and are a sinner before Him?
Kareem: No man is infallible.
Everyone sins and God is Most Merciful and will forgive sins (but the conditions
- you are forgetting repentance is also a science, your not looking at it
in black and white terms again I hope). God will forgive as long as ask
forgiveness while we are still alive... But once death has overtaken us,
the door of repentance is closed and what we have on our records is what
we have on our records. And now according to your definition, you
can NEVER please God, (according to your definition), so you are doomed
to His Anger and can never Please Him, that makes you in big trouble, if
you can never please him, then why try???
Matt: But is not repentance
and sincerity something offered to an infinitely holy God by a person who
has sinned against God and who is not finite and unholy? How can this
be?
Kareem: Why bother listening
to a God who u can never please? If you try to Please God, he is not pleased.
If you do not try to please God, He is still not pleased... why bother...
sounds like a catch 22 situation to me...
Matt: I think you are
understanding Christianity, now...at least a bit more. This is why the Bible
says that the only one who can please God is God Himself.
Kareem: With the catch 22 situation?
Matt: You see, we Christians
have an extremely high view of God's holiness. We cannot please God,
at all. But, Jesus, who is God the Son in flesh, is able to please
God the Father. Therefore, we trust in what Jesus did, not in what
we do.
Kareem: And?
Matt: We trust in the
sacrifice of Jesus to please God and we do not rely on ourselves.
To rely on ourselves is to be prideful. It is to say that we are able
to please an infinitely holy God. That would be arrogant.
Kareem: Not really
Matt: Yes, really.
I am not appealing to my own self to be able to please God. But, aren't
you doing that?
Kareem: If God has said man
can please God by doing such and such, and then we deny this, I think that
is being arrogant.
Matt: Aren't you appealing
to your own repentance and your own sincerity as a means to be able to please
an infinitely holy God?
Matt: Ah, but has God
said it or not?
Matt: You see, this is
where it comes back to the evidence supporting Islam and that supporting
Christianity.
Matt: Muhammad did not
rise from the dead. Jesus did. Muhammad killed people. Jesus did not.
Muhammad did not have detailed prophecies about him and his coming. Jesus
did. Muhammad did not claim to be divine. Jesus did claim to be divine.
Muhammad did not walk on water. Jesus did.
Kareem: This depends on the
source upon which rely, you say God said this and speak from the Bible,
and I say God said this and Speak from the Qur'an AND The Hadith,
Matt: Yes, and we are
back to which is true, correct?
Kareem: What remains to be
proven is whose, source is correct which in fact can be demonstrated
Matt: Did Muhammad rise
from the dead?
Kareem: No
Matt: Jesus rose from
the dead.
Matt: Whom should I trust
then?
Kareem: This can go on tit
for tat like a children's game (no disrespect here). My prophet did this,
did yours? etc etc
Matt: Yes it can. But
the fact is that the evidence will count for something.
Kareem: I can then ask Did
Jesus split the moon etc etc?
Matt: You can say that
the Qur'an is uncorrupted and I can deny that, and vice versa about the
Bible. Split the moon? I am aware of that claim? Muhammad did it with a
sword, right? And, did he not also say that the sun set in mud? If I were
you, I'd not go there.
Kareem: Again, I do not deny
that Jesus performed miracles by the command of God. The Qur'an is clear
about this
Matt: Yes, he did many
miracles. How many did Muhammad do?
Kareem: The Qur'an and Hadith
speak clearly of Jesus and Other Prophets Miracles
Matt: Is it not fair
to say that the one who does many more miracles has much more power?
Kareem: Muhammad did many miracles.
Matt: Such as?
Kareem: No, because these miracles
were done by the permission of God. Jesus himself is not God according
to the Qur'an.
Matt: Then God gave greater
permission to Jesus than Muhammad since Jesus did so many miracles. Also,
Jesus is God, according to the Bible.
Kareem: According to the Bible.
Matt: Yes, and the New
Testament documents is 99.5% textually pure. Did you know that?
Kareem: Now, the Miracles of
Prophet Muhammad (SAW) are many, I will go through them with you if you
wish, after looking them up, but the Primary Miracle of Muhammad (SAW) is
with us right now, this minute and this is the Qur'an. Yes the Qur'an itself
is a living miracle
Matt: One miracle, the
Qur'an?
Kareem: Unlike the miracles
of Jesus Christ (by the permission) which appeared 2000 years ago and now
you only read about them in books.
Matt: Jesus raised people
from the dead, walked on water, commanded the weather, commanded demons
to leave people, etc. Did Muhammad do any of this? Did Muhammad cure
leprosy? Cure sick people? Jesus did. Why should I NOT trust Jesus
and what He said since He backed up what He said by His many miracles?
Where in the Qur'an are the miracles of Muhammad?
Kareem: Because what Muhammad
said is backed up by the Qur'an...... a miracle. You are forgetting
something.....the source of Islam is not ONLY the Qur'an.
Matt: What Jesus said
was backed up by His MANY miracles.
Kareem: You keep forgetting.
Matt: The source of Christianity
is Jesus.
Kareem: What Muhammad (SAW)
is still backed up today by a Miracle.
Matt: What miracle?
Kareem: The Qur'an.
Matt: That makes no sense.
Matt: Saying that the
existence of the Qur'an proves Muhammad was true is meaningless. If
we use your logic, then the mere existence of the Bible proves that Jesus
was true.
Kareem: No of course not.
Matt: Since the Bible
says that Jesus is God in flesh, then it must be true and He is greater
than Muhammad. Then you cannot appeal to the existence of the Qur'an
as the proof that Muhammad was correct.
Kareem: But the existence of
the Qur'an as a MIRACLE proves Muhammad was a True Messenger.
Matt: Then likewise the
existence of the Bible and the MIRACLES performed by Jesus, proves Jesus
was God in flesh, as He said He was.
Kareem: So... do you believe
in revelation?
Matt: Yes, Jesus revealed
God to us and the Bible is the revelation of God. It records the many many
miracles of Jesus who claimed to be divine and that the Bible says is divine.
Kareem: No, you see the Bible
talks of miracles, whereas the Qur'an IS a Miracle.
Matt: Saying the Qur'an
is a miracle is meaningless. So what if the Qur'an exists? So?
Kareem: Ok if I can prove to
you that the Qur'an is a miracle would you accept it as revelation?
Matt: Of course. Go ahead
and try and prove that the Qur'an is a miracle.
Kareem: I am glad you have
sincerity
Matt: I am not afraid
of facts. Truth is that which agrees with reality
Kareem: May God increase you
in sincerity and me and guide us all to his way.
Matt: Reality is truth
and facts. So, I am never afraid to look at them.
Kareem: I envy your attitude
Matt: But, please try
and prove to me that the Qur'an is a miracle; that is, from God.
Kareem: To prove it is from
God the Qur'an must contain information that man cannot know
Matt: The Bible fits
this statement.
Kareem: To prove that God is
author of the Qur'an is what I will attempt to do. One thing that
strikes us about the Qur'an is that it contains things that we don't expect.
Matt: That is also true
of the Bible.
Kareem: We have an old book,
from 14 centuries ago and we expect it to look like that, an old book from
14 centuries ago, but some of the things mentioned in the Qur'an talk about
modern discoveries which could never have been known 14 centuries ago.
Muhammad (SAW) was a man who we could not read or write. only the few fortunate
and rich could read and write in those days. If we are to say the
Qur'an was written by Muhammad, who could not read or write this is not
possible
Matt: We Christians have
a book from 2000 years ago. Many of the things in the Bible are scientific
discoveries today.
Kareem: The Qur'an was compiled
and completed in his lifetime, not after.
Matt: The Earth is suspended
in nothing, "He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he
suspends the earth over nothing," (Job. 26:7, NIV). The Existence of
Valleys in the Seas, "The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations
of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath
from his nostrils," (2 Sam. 22:16, NIV). Also, the New Testament was
written by those who knew Jesus personally. The Qur'an wasn't compiled until
long after Muhammad was dead.
Matt: The Existence of
Water Paths (Ocean Currents) in the Seas, "O LORD, our Lord, how majestic
is your name in all the earth!...When I consider your heavens, the work
of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,...You
made him [man] ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under
his feet...the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim
the paths of the seas," (Psalm 8:1,3,6,8, NIV). So far, you have
not given me anything that is not in the Bible.
Kareem: Wrong my friend.
Matt: What other evidence
do you have that proves that the Qur'an is from God?
Kareem: The hadith were compiled
after, not the Qur'an.
Matt: You may be correct,
but I would have to check. What other evidence do you have that proves
that the Qur'an is from God?
Kareem: Well, now that you
have touched on the topic of science, let's compare and contrast the science
in the Qur'an and in the Bible
Matt: Okay
Kareem: So can you type the
verse again on the topic of oceans.
Matt: The Existence of
Valleys in the Seas, "The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations
of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath
from his nostrils," (2 Sam. 22:16, NIV). The Existence of Water
Paths (Ocean Currents) in the Seas, "O LORD, our Lord, how majestic
is your name in all the earth!...When I consider your heavens, the work
of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,...You
made him [man] ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under
his feet...the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim
the paths of the seas," (Psalm 8:1,3,6,8, NIV). The Hydrologic
Cycle, "He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not
burst under their weight," (Job. 26:8, NIV). "He draws up
the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour
down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind," (Job. 36:27-28,
NIV). "The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round
and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the
sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there
they return again," (Ecclesiastes 1:6-7, NIV).
Kareem: This property of the
seas, that they come together yet do not mingle with one another at all,
has only very recently been discovered by oceanographers. Because of the
physical force called "surface tension", the waters of neighboring seas
do not mix. Caused by the difference in the density of their waters, surface
tension prevents them from mingling with one another, just as if a thin
wall were between them. The Qur'an says... "He has let loose the two
seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break
through."
(The Qur'an, 55:19-20). The interesting side to this is that during
a period when people had no knowledge of physics, surface tension, or oceanography;
this was revealed in the Qur'an.
Matt: Okay, then by your
logic, the Bible is inspired since it talks about valleys in the seas, ocean
currents, and the hydrologic cycle, all of which, were not known until recent
times. Besides, your surah is interpretable. Barrier between them
can be read to mean many things. It can mean mountains, are not mountains
barriers?
Kareem: During sexual intercourse,
250 million sperms are emitted from the male at a time. The sperms undertake
an arduous journey in the mother's body until they make it to the ovum.
Only a thousand out of 250 million sperms succeed in reaching the ovum.
At the end of this five-minute race, the ovum, half the size of a grain
of salt, will let only one of the sperms in. That is, the essence of man
is not the whole semen, but only a small part of it. This is explained in
the Qur'an: "Does man reckon he will be left uncontrolled (without
purpose)? Was he not once a drop of ejected semen?"
(The Qur'an, 75:36-37)
Matt: Again, that is
quite interpretable and you are reading into it a lot more than what it
says. Look, you have tried to prove the Qur'an true and I have shown
you that the Bible fits the same criteria that you have given for the Qur'an.
Since the Bible contradicts the Qur'an, they cannot both be true. Your method
has left us only with confusion since your proofs do not establish one above
the other.
Kareem: When the sperm of the
male unites with the ovum of the female, the essence of the baby to be born
is formed. This single cell, known as a "zygote" in biology, will instantly
start to reproduce by dividing, and eventually become a "piece of flesh"
called an embryo. This of course can only be seen by human beings with the
aid of a microscope. The embryo, however, does not spend its developmental
period in a void. It clings to the uterus just like roots that are firmly
fixed to the earth by their tendrils. Through this bond, the embryo can
obtain the substances essential to its development from the mother's body.
Here, at this point, a very significant miracle of the Qur'an is revealed.
While referring to the embryo developing in the mother's womb, God uses
the word "alaq" in the Qur'an: "Recite: In the name of your Lord Who created
man from alaq. Recite: And your Lord is the Most Generous." (The Qur'an,
96:1-3)
The meaning of the word "alaq" in Arabic is "a thing that clings to some
place". The word is literally used to describe leeches that cling to a body
to suck blood. Certainly, the use of such an appropriate word for the embryo
developing in the mother's womb, proves once again that the Qur'an is a
revelation from God, the Lord of all the Worlds. But wait I haven't
finished.
Matt: Are you not reading
what I have written to you?
Kareem: You can't possibly
declare a book not to be true in five minutes.
Matt: You have tried
to prove the Qur'an true and I have shown you that the Bible fits the same
criteria that you have given for the Qur'an. Since the Bible contradicts
the Qur'an, they cannot both be true. Your method has left us only with
confusion since your proofs do not establish one above the other.
Kareem: This is a long discussion,
requires patience and sincerity
Matt: I understand, but
you have not established your point.
Kareem: And no, the bible does
not fit the same criteria as I have not finished.
Matt: The criteria you
have used also applies to the Bible and the Bible contradicts the Qur'an.
Therefore, your proof is not proof. You said earlier that the Qur'an has
things in it not knowable by the people of the time. I have shown
you several things in the Bible that meet that criteria. The
Existence of Valleys in the Seas, "The valleys of the sea were exposed
and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at
the blast of breath from his nostrils," (2 Sam. 22:16, NIV).
The Existence of Springs and Fountains in the Seas, "In the six hundredth
year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month -- on that
day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of
the heavens were opened," (Genesis 7:11, NIV). See also Gen. 8:2; Prov.
8:28.
Kareem: Have you even read
the last example, I am just warning you up, you have no idea of what is
to come
Matt: Hold on.
I am not interested in going further. You have made a statement about
a proof. I have shown you that your "proof" also applies to
the Bible. This is what you need to address now.
Kareem: Of course there is
a big difference.
Matt: The Bible revealed
that which was not known until recent times: The Existence of Water
Paths (Ocean Currents) in the Seas, "O LORD, our Lord, how majestic
is your name in all the earth!...When I consider your heavens, the work
of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,...You
made him [man] ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under
his feet...the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim
the paths of the seas," (Psalm 8:1,3,6,8, NIV).
Kareem: "The valleys of
the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke
of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils," (2 Sam. 22:16,
NIV).
.. where is the science required in this?
Matt: Then you admit
that the Lord did this and it is accurately recorded in the Bible? The
Earth is suspended in nothing, "He spreads out
the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing,"
(Job. 26:7, NIV). If not, then why quote it?
Kareem: The Existence of
Water Paths (Ocean Currents) in the Seas, "O
LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!...When I consider
your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have
set in place,...You made him [man] ruler over the works of your hands; you put
everything under his feet...the birds of the air, and the fish of
the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas," (Psalm 8:1,3,6,8, NIV). And where
is the advancement of science required in this?
Matt: You are missing
the point. The Bible revealed that which was not knowable: valleys in the
sea as well as paths.
Kareem: You see, the Bible
does not meet the criteria, of the Qur'an because the Qur'anic statements
require the advancement of modern technology
Matt: That the stars
are innumerable:
"He took him outside and said, "Look up at the
heavens and count the stars -- if indeed you can count them." Then he said to
him, "So shall your offspring be,"
(Gen. 15:5, NIV).
Kareem: But I can even today,
without reading the bible look up and know that I cannot count the stars
Matt: Of course it requires
scientific advancement to be able to map the valleys of the oceans, know
their currents, understand entropy, the hydrologic cycle, etc. These
are revealed in the Bible. The only problem is that you are not sincere.
You are not sincerely looking at the facts. How then, can you trust
your judgments?
Kareem: Can you today, without
science, and without Qur'an tell me that when the embryo is a leech like
clot which clings to the womb of a mother?
Matt: Tell me how it
is possible for ancient man to be able to know of valleys in the seas, or
the ocean currents. First of all, your suras are highly interpretable.
Second, I have matched your criteria with biblical examples. You're
proof is not proof.
Kareem: I knew u would say
that.
Matt: Knowing I would
say it does not mean it isn't true.
Kareem: Qur'an is interpretable,
but the Bible isn't?
Matt: I see. That is
it?
Kareem: And the Bible, has
been, written, and rewritten and rewritten again and again
Matt: You have just demonstrated
that you do not know how the Bible was written or preserved.
Matt: You have only repeated
what you have heard. I mean no disrespect, but you are not accurate in this.
Kareem: The Qur'an is as it
was in its complete form untouched since it was revealed. How many
versions of the bible are there?
Matt: That is also quite
debatable. If the Qur'an is so perfect, then what about this? What
was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing? "Created man,
out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2). "The
similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from
dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59). "But does not man
call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali).
Also, 52:35). "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this
same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4). Is there or is
there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an? "Let there
be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever
rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold,
that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans
wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for
them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular
prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah
is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5). Does Allah forgive or not
forgive those who worship false gods? Allah forgiveth not that partners
should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth;
to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48).
Also 4:116 "The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to
them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle),
for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their
presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even
after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses
manifest proofs of authority," (4:153), and more,
http://www.carm.org/islam/Koran_contradictions.htm.
Kareem: One at a time, my friend,
you obviously allow no room for discussions. Of course, a website
bashing Islam.
Matt: That is not so.
We have been discussing here for a long time. Jamil, I must confess.
It is my website. It is what I have researched and written myself.
You see, I have done the research on the Qur'an and the Bible.
Kareem: I find that inspiring
Matt: This is what I
have written on Islam: http://www.carm.org/islam.htm.
This is what I have written on the Bible:
http://www.carm.org/bible.htm
Kareem: But in that case you
ought to sit with a Muslim who has also done his research on the Bible.
Matt: I would be glad
to.
Kareem: Not with a computer
scientist like me but I must add, that up until this point I have not once
pointed out the flaws in the bible. I tried not to go there, simply
because it becomes a tit for tat.
Matt: Correct.
Kareem: Your book says this,
and mine says that and a whole night is spent unconstructively.
Matt: Correct.
That is why I have had to study the issues and the facts concerning the
Bible and its reliability. It is reliable, 99.5% textually pure in the New
Testament, written by eyewitnesses of Jesus life.
Kareem: Debatable I would say
Matt: Facts speak the
truth, right?
Kareem: But right now I am
nearly running late for my prayers
Matt: I understand.
Kareem: If you wish you can
wait about half an hour while I run down the mosque and back or we can carry
this on another time.
Matt: I appreciate that,
but to be honest, my wife has returned home and I have been on the computer
with you for a long time.
Kareem: I have yet to meet
a Christian who displays his sincerity like you have.
Matt: Thank you.
Kareem: Understandable
Matt: And thank you for
not being insulting as some Muslims have been. I hope I have not insulted
or offended you in my sinfulness.
Kareem: Thanks
Matt: Good night.
Kareem: We have been commanded
in the Qur'an to invite with beautiful words and wisdom
Matt: I believe truth
is found in Jesus.
Kareem: Can i have your e-mail
address?
Matt: He said He was
the truth.
Matt:
carmstuff@yahoo.com.
Kareem: I believe in Jesus
Matt: Good night.
Kareem: I hope so. You
too. Good night.